Welcome to The County Seat I'm your
host Chad Booth. Today we are
talking about wild or feral horses.
There are some 43,000 of them in
holding pins right now and if they
bring the range size down to an
appropriate level, we'll be looking at
seventy some odd thousand horses
additional. They cost $20,000 apiece
to keep. That's 1.2 billion dollars we
currently owe an it will double if we
bring more into pasture. How do you
solve the problem? That's our show
today. Let's learn a little bit more
about wild horses to start.
When we think about wild horses on the range
images like this one usually come to mind.
However the reality is far harsher.
It is images like this show the true plight of wild
horse herds in the western United States.
In 2014 there were roughly 3,000 wild horses
and burros in Utah and about 33,000
nationwide. Fast forward to this year and there
are now 5,000 in Utah and 72,000 on ranges
nationwide.
According to the rules set out in Wild Free-
Roaming horse and burro act of 1971, federal
agencies were to manage wild herds while
maintaining a thriving ecological balance and
multiple-use relationship. At the time the
sustainable number was estimated to be 25,000
animals, roughly a third of what the population
is now. And the numbers just continue to grow.
"The horses don't have much in the way of
natural control in their numbers other than
through starvation and dehydration and that
doesn't occur until the resources on the range
have been depleted. And that is a slow ugly
death for the horses involved."
Currently 46,000 horses and burros are living in
BLM holding facilities. The cost to maintain that
number is using roughly two thirds of the horse
and burro program budget, a cost estimated at
50 million dollars.
This is why the National Wild Horse and Burro
summit was held in Salt Lake City recently. A
solution needs to be found before the cost
becomes too much for the BLM to handle,
before rangelands are decimated, and before
the horses breed themselves into oblivion.
"That's why I'm here today is to participate in
these conversations to see if we can help drive
some ideas and some solutions that will really
help us tackle the overpopulation of wild horses
and burros and produce healthy rangelands."
In today's panel discussion, we'll focus on the
options presented at the horse and burrow
summit and ask what lawmakers need to do to
help fix the ongoing problem.
For the County Seat I'm Malia Stringham.
Thanks Malia, the Horse and Burro
Summit has yielded some very good
information and some very
interesting speakers. We are going to
talk to four of them, when we come
back on The County Seat.
Welcome back to The County Seat we
are doing an update and wild horses
and burros because of the recent
summit in Salt Lake City joining us for
this conversation is John Ruse who is
the acting deputy director of
operations for the BLM transplant for
the time being from Washington DC
thank you for joining us. We have J.J.
Goicoechea who is a veteran of our
show and a Nevada State
veterinarian and the chair of the
county commission for Eureka County
in Nevada. We have Eric Thacker
who is an assistant professor at Utah
State University and you are also the
range specialist. Which gives us a
great conversation. I have noticed in
this summit as there have been other
horse and burro events we have gone
to as The County Seat over the years
that this one has some difference to
it there are a lot of changes in
motion. Most notably changes in the
range conditions changes in the herd
and herd populations and it seems
like there is a change in policy where
at least how the federal government
is acknowledging what is going on
with the horses that is publicly has
not ever shown up before so that is
what I would like to focus on. I think
probably most important to start
with the range issues so Eric if we
could talk to you for just a second.
Let's talk about what conditions have
changed on the range.
The wild horse and burro problems
are not new problems we have kind
of reached a point and a lot of people
are referring to it as a breaking point
wild horses are at the highest
population they have ever been in
certain parts the range of experience
with the pretty dramatic drought
over the last few years which
exacerbates the range condition even
worse and so it has reached a point
where people are concerned that we
have reached a breaking point that
something needs to be done now
because of the range condition and
we have already crossed what a lot of
people would call an ecological
threshold meaning even if the horses
come off the range right now all the
grazing animals come off the range
right now it would not return to its
previous condition because of the
damage it has been done. So a lot of
this is triage and trying to stop the
bleeding so to speak before it gets
any worse.
So is there more of a willingness to
look at some of these issues. I
jumping down to the other end here
on policy, I have not ever actually
heard acknowledgments of saying we
need the tools back of being able to
sell them outright and that has never
ever come up publicly from the BLM
but it was part of two presentations
today.
It is very important for us to have the
full set of tools in order for us to do
the job that Congress gave us in the
1971 wild horse and burro act. I
think it is we are at a precipice you
talk about range conditions and if we
do not acknowledge the fact that
horse numbers are too high and we
have to take some active
management the situation is going to
get completely it's so out of kilter
now we cannot sustain it.
Two years ago J.J. when you were last
on the show we were still way out in
numbers and from the BLM's part
this was not part of their public
dialogue it was we have tools we are
not allowed to sell outright we are
not allowed to engage in euthanasia
has things changed with the herds as
well?
Things have changed not only with
the herds we are starting to see some
dramatic body condition changes in
some of these horses they are very
thin we are seeing some die offs of
horses in some places late in the
summer. But all the other species
that are out there we have started to
see some significant changes as well.
Our wildlife is being impacted by the
over population of wild horse out
there we have been warned about
this for 20 to 25 years and we are
now finally really starting to see that
and I think that is what is changing
this conversation today.
So what is a good range? How many
animals should be out there, that is
my question? What do you think?
I jump in first I think let's get to
where we are supposed to be
currently and then we can have a
conversation about whether that is
still too many. I think is kind of an
academic argument pointless
argument is the 27,000 which is the
high AML (Appropriate Management
Levels) is that too many or not
enough the conversation says let's
get them to AML and then we can
reevaluate whether or not we need
to go lower or maybe we can handle
fewer we cannot even have that
conversation until we get there in
Utah we have not ever been at AML
since the 90's. So we don't even
know what it looks like to be at AML.
I agree with Eric we have to AML but
most likely we will probably see some
number changes ups and down
perhaps in some areas because the
ecological sites have changed since
1971 where those 27,000 horses
were in 1971 I do not think we can
carry 27,000 horses in those identical
places again today because of the
range deterioration.
This is a good place to hold and I
want to come back and address can
we actually accomplish this if we are
like 60,000 horses over AML we will
take a break on The County Seat and
we will be right back.
Welcome back to The County Seat we
are talking today about the wild
horse and burro situation a recent
summit in Salt Lake City brought all
the people together put the best
minds together and working on a
solution. So I want to start and I have
two questions I really want to get in
this segment and John here is the
first one. You have 60,000 too many
horses out there not even counting
Indian lands not even counting what
is in the pastures can we actually do
this?
We have to. So the question is how
and that is what this summit has
been about is to try to find and have
a dialogue and look at options and
look at finding those ways how do we
work together to come up with
solutions to dealing with 60,000
horses.
So I understand that the intent is
right but I am going to be honest with
you live in an environment with an
agency that likes static things not
dynamic and from what I am hearing
this is going to require being very
dynamic on the range and how we
handle the things because we have
got population shifting around and
you have a lot of variables on the
ground including drought weather
and everything else. So how do you
make that shift?
For the agency we have to go back to
some of our foundational principals.
We have to go back to the wild horse
and burro act itself which talked
about management we have to back
to FLPMA the federal land policy
management act because that also
give us direction on management. So
if we get back to our foundational
purpose our mission if you will then
tell us we need to be managing and
that is where we have to go and what
we have to do we have to focus on
those foundational principals.
Those are really tough if you go into it
and read the 1971 act it talks about
excess horses being sold out right for
euthanasia it talks about things that
are currently unpopular but are those
not going to have to be in the tool
box to work?
You know I think they are. They are
going to have to be in the tool box
other ways of curbing our
reproductive growth and in the tool
box we need to get down to AML that
means we have to find that capacity
off range to get there. That is going
to require some additional tools that
currently are not palatable today.
But I ask everyone is it palatable to
allow these horses to starve? To die
for lack of water and to allow all the
other resources out there to suffer
the same consequences because the
horse is the last one to show that.
We are going to have to take some
unpleasant steps if we are ever going
to get this. Every day we wait it
becomes more and more unpleasant.
So Eric looking at the range
conditions are the advocates that
save we have to protect the horses at
all costs just give them all the range,
are they being unrealistic at looking
at what the range can sustain.
I cannot speak for them directly but
what I can speak to with an animal
with a 20% annual growth rate even
if all the cattle come off the range
that's a lot of the conflict now is let's
take more cattle off and put more
horses on that really doesn't address
the problem. We will just add more
horses to more land and we will still
end up we are not solving any
problems with that because we still
have a species that is nonnative there
is no ecological regulatory
mechanisms to control population so
that is really not a solution. See what
I am trying to say in the short term
we might have more animals but it
will just exasperate the problem.
So Eric maybe you want to touch on
as a range scientist what happens to
those remaining ecological sites that
are still intact and maybe functioning
at risk.
Well I should have finished because
what that means is you are now
spreading the problem. Right now
we have like in Utah we have 19 wild
horse management areas if we just
took the boundaries off those and let
the horses go where they want we
would just expand those problems to
a broader cross section of the range
so ultimately lead to more range land
degradation and more of the same
issues we are dealing with now so it is
not a solution.
The advocates look at it from saying
we have to get the cattle guys off as
we should all be vegetarians anyway.
That kind of seems like the argument.
So what happens to the wildlife in
those cases? We are still forgetting
we have native wildlife because this
is an introduced species the horse
and we have native wildlife they are
being pushed onto our private
property in so many places across the
west already, where the horses are
forcing them off of these eco systems
that is only going to continue you can
remove all of the domestic livestock
from public lands that wild life is then
the next species that is going to
suffer.
I think that is the one thing that is
often not brought up. It polarizes the
argument to would you rather have
horses than cows on the range?
Which to a lot of people it may sound
appealing but that is completely
discounting the fact that it would
lead to wide spread loss of wild life
and wild life habitat that is also very
important.
We are not just talking about elk here
are we? We are talking birds, we are
talking all kinds of things.
Well its multiple use and that is
John's agency mission if you will is
multiple use.
Correct.
You know the presentation that
Brock McMillian from BYU gave today
illustrates this point perfectly. Even
with song birds which they don't live
on the ground with horses you would
think you saw more than 50%
reduction in the numbers of birds
around water holes where horses
were versus where horses were
excluded. So the point is that they
have an impact on everything else in
those systems. We have largely
ignored the impacts to wildlife up to
this point because that has not been
part of the discussion which I think
needs to be part of the discussion.
Let me take you back quickly to the
wild horse and burro act where it
tells us to maintain a thriving
ecological balance and a balance of
all the uses that are out there. Not
just the horse or burro.
Now that is something I do not think I
would have heard from your agency a
year and half ago or two years ago.
It is a natural ecological balance as
well.
Correct.
What is naturally there we do not
want to supplement with additional
water sources or haul water or those
types of things to do what Eric said
and put the problem somewhere
else.
Well there are going to be those who
say oh yes, the horse is a native
species it started in the North
American continent in the prehistoric
times and so now it is not native
because it moved to Europe and has
come back. I have heard people make
this argument.
They have one of the presenters
today actually addressed that. The
horse that evolved here in North
America went extinct over 10,000
years ago. Gone.
So did all of its predators.
That's the large part of it that was ice
age stuff a lot of things changed so
the horses that are here today are of
Spanish and European descent and
are not related to those original
horses.
John question for you very short
answer. Are you equipped with the
tools that you need right now or are
your hands tied as an agency?
We have a lot of tools and what we
need right now is a full suite of tools
then we need the partnership with
the state and local governments and
the people that live on the ground to
help us accomplish those things.
Could you do that today could you
implement an outright sale and a
euthanasia policy?
No we need assistance from
Congress.
Okay we are going to take a break
and address that issue when we
come back right here on the county
seat and we are talking about wild
horse and burros and doing an
update some very interesting
conversation and there is a dynamic
in this conference I have never seen
before. We will be right back.
Welcome back to the county seat we
took the gauntlet seriously about
Congress needing to do something so
we have substituted John for this last
segment with Clay White who is the
assistance legislative director for
Representative Chris Stewart out of
Utah. We are going to start this and
let's just say the balls in your court
the BLM has said you guys have got
to make something happen in
Congress is this even possible right
now?
Well thanks for having me on Chad
and the previous guest John was
absolutely right. Let me very clear
this is a congressional created
problem the BLM does not have all
the tools in their tool box that they
were meant to have from the 1971
horse and burro act Congress has
taken many of those tools away and
not allowed them to use those. So
we have been working on addressing
this problem since Mr. Stewart came
into congress. He has become known
as the wild horse guy he holds up
pictures every year in the
appropriations committee because
that is where this rider prevents the
BLM with the wild horses and burros
from having additional management
tools. To answer your question I think
it is possible. We have moved the
ball inch by inch we will take a first
down instead of a touch down.
To be quite frank and I am not trying
to put you on the spot Clay but if you
listen to these two we do not have
time to do a first in ten. I mean it's
got to be a Hail Mary at this point
because if it takes another 20 years
to get those tools put back there is
not going to be any range left.
Absolutely and I 100% agree with
that we are at a tipping point and
unfortunately that is when Congress
acts is when their backs are against
the wall we tend to not do anything
proactively we tend to do things at
midnight before it runs out of time.
So Clay you guys and Congressman's
Stewart's office and some others
across the west but what do we need
to do those of us on the ground who
are really seeing this day to day the
ecological damage the damage to the
horses themselves the death to the
horses. How do we need to reach out
to those others in Congress and make
them understand just how significant
this is today?
That is our biggest hurdler we have to
cross. Members of congress on both
sides of the isle do not fully
understand this problem this is a
western issue that is out of sight and
out of mind to most members of
Congress.
What do you hit them with? Do you
hit them with the 1 billion dollars it's
going to take to keep these horses in
pastures?
Absolutely the cost the inhumane
treatment that the animals are
receiving currently on the range
where they are starving to death we
have scientific based evidence this
horse conference is a great
illustration of that. That is why I am
saying that our partners on our side
of the isle and the other side of the
isle are starting to come around. Mr.
Stewart was successful in giving the
BLM more tools this past July in the
appropriations process and we are
hopeful that will be in the end of the
year spending package.
Five years ago I think when we first
did our very first County Seat on this
issue I was scolded from bringing up
slaughter. I said the word, even by
panelist. They said you cannot say
that. Are we are the point to me it
seems like a solution we really have
to look at is this opening stuff up for
commercial sale again.
It depends on your definition of
slaughter. It really does. Mr.
Stewart's amendment will still
prohibit slaughter for commercial and
human consumption but it will allow
the BLM to euthanize excess horses.
That is a tool that they have not had
in their tool bag for decades. So
when I say we are making progress
those are some of things we are
doing. Granted they are not all the
tools but we had to realize the
political reality and we got our
friends on the other side of the isle to
agree with us. They did not oppose
Mr. Stewart's amendment they said
we won't vote against it and it
received a technically unanimous
vote because there was not recorded
vote called.
I guarantee I will get emails about
this but we are at a point where
something needs to happen and I am
asking everybody who watches this
show this is one you need to get
involved in you need to start making
your point known that we need to do
something about this give congress
the courage through representatives
to do what they need to do to change
the policy to make things happen.
Share this with your friends share it
on social media we have to get these
pictures and this dialogue out to
everybody so do that and we will
catch you next week on The County
Seat.
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