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Welcome to this weeks' episode of

The County Seat, I'm your host Chad

Booth. Today we are going to talk

about west desert issues and joining

us are the people that are closest to

the issues that happen out here. We

have Glenn Greenhalgh from

Planning Department in Juab County

and we Commissioner Dean Draper

from Millard County and we are going

to have a discussion about the issues

that really are driving survivability of

the west and that may sound

dramatic but really the survivability

of the communities of the west

desert are at stake. It is not unlike

the pioneers where you look at first

issues of land water access and

invasion and those are the four topics

So let's start the conversation with

land access Dean what is the biggest

problem with land out here?

Well 70% of Millard County is public

land and the BLM part of that it's

used for grazing and mining it's used

for recreation. Up until the current

administration there was a great

drive to keep the public off of public

lands to curtain grazing allotments to

make it so mining could not happen

that impacts the economies of our

counties it reduces our tax base and

it reduces the service that are

available to our people. As far as the

average person who came into

wester Utah they would be allowed

just like in Hawaii if you are out on a

sidewalk or a beach or asphalt you

can go there but you cannot go

anywhere else.

Okay, understood. What are some of

the specific problems that threaten

our status quo the administration has

hanged but there are things like the

test range that have an impact on

how we use public land and have a

big effect in both your counties.

That's correct. The Utah test and

training range is extremely important

to the free world. It's the only type

of its range in the United States. We

support and are grateful for that but

we are also need to understand it can

have a large impact of the residents

of that area of the state of Utah.

They are doing some expansion now

we are concerned about the

possibilities of road closures and

things we been working closely with

SITLA as well as the DOD and others

but it is a mixed blessing but we need

to maintain the access to the lands.

all, are their multiple roads that

actually cross like multiple uses on

the test range?

There are many uses across the test

range. This latest expansion would

allow some closures for that but they

have fly sorties if you will or have

pilots from around the free world

that come and test on this range. It's

one of the few places they can fly

what they call map of the earth and

do some of the training. Last time I

was with the air force out of hill air

force base the pilot that was

conducting the briefing had just

returned from some very successful

missions in Iraq and he said every

tactic I used in Iraq I learned right

here on this range.

Wow, so it is not that they are

dropping ordinances out there so

much as it is they are practicing

maneuvers.

They are testing new technology. The

formal border for this is the

Juab/Millard County line but it's like

tehSR21 Blackbird it takes 3 states to

turn one of those around these things

do not turn around at the border

they come across Millard County's

airspace. We have a project being

developed on the Sevier Lake dry bed

and the fly zones extend in a vector

out there you have places where you

cannot build 100 feet above ground

level others where it is 200 feet

above ground level that is also

Millard County's next primary place

for development. This mine that is

going in on the lakebed there would

have things that could possibly

exceed that so that their energy

could be used to process their

ultimate pot ash situation. What we

are looking for is to not inhibit

development in our counties with

that out in Juab County there are

roads that will be closed and the

people that live there will be told that

for 2 or 3 days they don't move.

If you live in Callao that is kind of a

problem, isn't it?

IT is.

Is there a general solution to this, it's

kind of different than the normal

BLM we are going to cut your grazing

allotment issue right?

It is but if you look at history and I

like to be an optimist not a pessimist

if you look at history what often

happens is what I call baby steps,

they get a little bit and then they get

a little bit more and then they get a

little bit more and you are never sure

where you are going to end up so you

got to be careful and watch as the ant

begins to eat the elephant one bit at

a time.

Understood we have just barely

touched on this issue sounds like we

will be coming back on an entire

series of shows. We are going to

move onto water on the County Seat

and talk about that that is an issue

that is very important to the counties

be back in just a minute.

Welcome back to The County Seat we

are talking today about issues of the

west desert which actually

encompass several counties out here

in the west. Our topic now is to look

at the issues of water of which is the

most important issue for survivability

of any of the communities out here.

We do want to talk about the water

issues behind us is surface water and

most people think if you need a

community to survive you just build

another reservoir you tap a little

more of a river and your problems

are solved. Is that not the case?

Absolutely not the case. Surface

water is but a small part of the whole

water scheme of things water system

and I believe that people really have

a misunderstanding when it comes to

water what water is and the

importance of it.

know that every now and then in the

news Snake Valley water comes up

and people go what does that have to

do with Delta what does that have to

do with Callao and western Juab

County because it's over in Nevada

aren't they on a different aquifer?

They are on a different aquifer than

we are right here but they are not on

a different aquifer from some of the

rest of the state of Utah. We have

studies that show that water actually

flows from Utah side of Snake Valley

even in towards Salt Lake and there

are a couple issues with that it's not

as much that the water guest to Salt

Lake some of it does head that way

but if we start reducing the water

pressure or water flow on our side

some of the bad water from around

some of the salt flats things like that

will begin to head this way it will

deteriorate the water situation in Salt

Lake County but it could also destroy

such things as fish springs which is

national wildlife refuge.

So Dean when you are talking about

hydrostatic pressure of ground water

basically I think I understand what

Glenn is saying you take water out of

a chunk the surrounding water is

going in to fill in the void.

That happens the mountain ranges in

western Utah run across Nevada all

have permeability at some point in

Nevada right now there was a

hearing 2 weeks ago about pumping

water out of the Spring valley that

aquifer there the LDS church put

together a study in 2017 if they were

to pump water in this Spring Valley7

according to that study water would

flow backwards from the Hamlin

Valley and the Snake Valley in Utah

back into the Spring Valley that would

have a draw that also brings water

down from Juab and Salt Lake County

because it would reverse the flow

depending on how much was taken

out.

So if they basically take water out of

an aquifer and pump it to Las Vegas

which I think they are trying to do

what happens to the water out here?

Is there proof that this is actually

happening?

They have models they do not have

proof yet they do have some history

though. On the Utah Nevada border

in the Snake Valley there is a large

spring called Big Springs. It provides

water that goes north to Esdaile and

Callao and Juab the water table there

has been dropping 6-8 inches each

year for the past five years.

You find that has been true in Juab

County as well.

That is true. We find that the existing

wells and ranchers' farmers in Juab

County in Snake Valley their water

levels have dropped and I do not

have exact measurements but they

have been dropping and I have

toured that country many times and

where they used to be large seeps if

you are lucky now there is a tiny

puddle.

One other question the argument

that says Las Vegas Salt Lake should

get this water is that there is ah

higher need there. Do you guys agree

with that model?

No I do not.

How do you justify that Glenn?

I have had some experience some of

it in the electric power industry there

was a group that I was involved with

had some big players like Provo some

small players like Manti and Nephi

and Levan and actually the power

superintendent in Provo taught us all

that a kilowatt is a kilowatt no matter

what. It is not about how many

people it's about the individual

people and those individual people

who have made their life and

livelihood carved out some very

rough country of a place they can live

and work they deserve as much

condition as much protection as any

other resident or citizen in the state

of Utah. And it is important that we

understand that. People think that

water is a small thing it's important

to understand a few points. One that

in order for humans to survive there

are 3 most important, if you exclude

air there are 3 most important items.

Number one is air and you can go a

few minutes without air. Number two

is water you can go a few days

without water. Number 3 is food you

can go weeks without food. People

need to understand how important it

is and people in Callao and Trout

Creek Garrison and Baker Nevada

they deserve just as much

consideration as somebody in a larger

valley. We need to stop inner basin

flows if we are going to protect the

lifestyle that is the American Dream.

I know we are running a little long on

time but one very quick statement

from you, Dean, what happens to the

land if they do withdraw the water?

Okay they are looking at doing

evapotranspiration capture that

mean that all of the plants and the

valleys that they would pump from

would die. It would leave an absolute

desert with no plant growth on top

other than what surface water might

encourage.

Would that basically create a dust

problem for some of the metro areas

that are sucking the water in?

Absolutely, you would have a

pollution with the dust that way an

inner basin transfer in any basins in

any states sets a precedent where a

large urban area could come after

rural water and leave everybody

sitting there with hey we are in

trouble.

That would be starving to death

eventually because a lot of food

comes out of this area.

That's right.

We have to take a break we will be

right back with The County Seat

talking about west desert issues and

we will pick up with getting access to

those when we return.

Welcome back to The County Seat we

are in the western part of Millard

County out in the great western

desert of Utah talking about issues

that are really important to rural

Utah particular people who live in

this dry climate out here. We have

covered the topic of land and water

but neither one of those amount for

much if you do not have access so

one of the other key problems is

access to roads and we continue our

conversation with Commissioner

Draper from Millard C county and

joining us now is Tony Rampton from

the Attorney General's office who is

the RS2477 Czar from Southern Utah.

Tony thank you for driving all the way

out here for this RS2477 road. Let's

just have a chat a bit about where we

are with RS2477.

Well where we are right now is there

are several different things that are

moving forward. As I have said many

times everyone recognizes that

litigating the 12,500 roads that the

state of Utah and the counties are

claiming won't happen.

It cannot happen.

Physically it is impossible so we have

to come up with an alternative

solution and an alternative process

for processing these road claims so

we have got 3 different groups

working on that the courts are

working on that the Congress of the

United States is working on that and

BLM is working on that so there are

things in the works it just takes so

much time that is the thing that is

frustrating to people is that it just

takes a lot of time and it will continue

to take a long time. It's a big project.

So a lot of people look at this and say

what difference this dirt road makes.

It may have been here 100 years ago

but who needs this road today?

Well this has been used for over 100

years this is a mining district this is a

grazing district and it allows access if

this road were to be closed you could

take a 20 mile detour and still never

get where you needed to be.

So who uses it today?

We have cattle producers that are

out here with different permits in this

area. They come out to check their

livestock over here to the west of us

is what is known as Smelter Knoll it's

a rhyolite formation rock founders

come out here commercial rock

salesmen come and they collect the

different formation they put them in

aquariums and fire places these

people use this road for access to

that. Down at the south end of

Smelter Knoll is a crate which in the

1940's they took a meteorite out of it

that is now in the Smithsonian. It is

still a favorite for people to come and

camp and enjoy life and this road

facilitates that.

Well why couldn't it just be a Title 5?

That limits access in such a way that

you cannot do anything with it.

If it stayed Title 5 who would decide

how the road was used or how it

continues?

The BLM. Title 5's cannot be

compared to an RS2477. A Title 5 is

essentially a permit issued by the

federal government. That permit is

subject to conditions. BLM can place

any kinds of conditions that they

want to.

Including revocation?

They are always revocable. You

cannot put together a Title 5 permit

that is not revocable. The law

disallows that so that is a conditional

permit that is revocable an RS2477 is

actually a conveyance of title to a

right of way that is permanent that

cannot be revoked. So you cannot

compare the two they are very

different animals.

Okay we have covered as much as we

can one last final question, how much

would it cost the county if you did not

have these roads out here?

Oh, it would be hundreds of

thousands if not millions of dollars

just in access. The grazing would go

away you could round them up on

horseback but permits have different

times on them it would be

catastrophic.

Indeed we have covered the issues of

roads not as well as we would like we

have spent several hours talking

about this over the years but it looks

like there is some progress as Tony

said and the counties are still really

engaged in the fight to make sure

that they maintain access. We are

going to take a break from the

County Seat when we come back

some problems that are facing the

west when we take a look at the

current status of wild horse and

burro and how much impact that

really has on people out here on the

range lands. Back in just a minute.

In 1990 when the BLM was still

gathering horses this spot looked like

this. In 2000 after they had

discontinued regular gathers of

excess horses the area looked like

this. What's the difference? The

foliage is gone the ground cover is

gone. This is the area today and what

you see here today is not only is the

ground cover gone but so is the soil.

Welcome back to The County Seat we

are talking about issues that are

impacting the west desert counties of

Juab, Millard, and Beaver and to

some degree Iron and Tooele county.

Joining us for this segment is Mark

Winch who is a cattle rancher out

here in the west desert in Beaver

County and Mark thank you for

joining us.

Thank you Chad, I appreciate it.

You run probably one of the bigger

cattle operations out here and this is

part of your allotment area is that

correct?

Yes this is one of our summer

pastures.

So I want to talk to you about the

issue of what is happening to the land

out here because this entire wild

horse and burro issue that keeps

capturing the headlines and keeps

causing the protests and keeps

affecting BLM and Congress and what

they do is this about the horses or is

it about the ground.

This really is not about the horses.

This has to be a rangeland health

issue. Over the years we have seen

horse numbers well above 300 head

in this area. Its suppose to have zero

and as a rancher the destruction of

the resource is my main concern I like

to see a few horses it has always

been a fun and entertaining thing but

when you come out here and you see

horses and horses in large numbers

destroying the resource like you can

see here and losing the grass and the

foliage and being left with rock is

destruction.

In this case even the top soil. Let me

ask you a question I know people at

home are thinking about this, when

was the last time you had cows on

this land?

Last time I had cows on this land was

about 3 years ago. But I am

supposed to be able to run 330 head

here and all I turned out was 50 head

so significant numbers it's been a

decade.

So since you ran it like it is. So who

ate that grass that is still here?

Well what little bit of grass that is

here you can see right here what is

left with this plant that has been a

horse that has come along and

cropped that and is pretty well

destroyed.

Could a cow actually crop grass that

close?

No a cow cannot crop grass that close

a cows purely has bottom teeth it

wraps the grass and it pulls up and

cuts the grass but a horse has top and

bottom teeth and they can get right

down to the dirt.

Okay so we obviously see that this

damage is caused by horses but the

thing that most concerns me and I

am most alarmed at in looking at this

is that picture from 2000 while the

ground cover was gone you still had

top soil and this is obviously different

do you think you can rehabilitate

this?

It's possible maybe but it will take a

lot of effort and money.

How do you get grass to grow on

rocks?

It's going to be hard and it may not

ever come back and that's the real

scary part is here on these ranges we

are getting about six and half inches

of water annually and so the grass is

here does need to be managed and

taken care of and with cattle we are

able to do that we are able to put

them in for a certain period of time

and then pull those cattle out which

helps plants and helps them grow but

with horses they are here all the

time.

One quick question how about the

horses. Does the ranching

community want them off the land?

No what we would simply like is

horses to be held at the scientific

level a number that is going to be

manageable and healthy for them

and the range I have seen starving

horses I have seen dying horses and I

have seen dead horses and its tragic

and if you call that a humane source

of compassion to let these animals

die and starve on the range that is

absolutely cruel.

Mark thanks for your time,

Thank you, Chad.

Thanks for staying with us on The

County Seat so much more to find

out about so if you go to our website

or YouTube channel or our FB page

you can find more in depth

interviews with the people we had on

the show so we thank you for joining

us today and remember local

government is where your life

happens and sometimes where your

food comes from please be engaged

and part of the solution we will see

you next week on The County Seat.